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Date: -- (:)
From: Markus Mottl <markus@o...>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Re: productivity improvement
On Sun, 14 Jul 2002, Dave Berry wrote:
> At 13:43 12/07/2002, Markus Mottl wrote:
> >I'd say that depending on the kind of the problem 1:3
> >to 1:10 is reasonable and fits well to the experience of others. E.g.,
> >the Erlang developers also report productivity gains in this range on
> >large-scale commercial projects. OCaml will most likely have similar
> >ratios.
> 
> I find it unlikely that OCaml would increase productivity as much as
> Erlang. Erlang is designed primarily for concurrent programming (I
> believe).  When people attempt concurrent programming in C, C++ or Java,
> they typically use primitive notions such as threads and locks.  This is
> noticeably harder and more error-prone than sequential programming.
> Therefore any language that concentrates on this problem has more to gain
> than a primarily sequential language.

Erlang is very niche-specific (though, fault-tolerant distributed
computation is surely a worthy niche). I think that Erlang would find
it tough to compete against OCaml in most other niches, be it symbolic
or numeric computation, be it in terms of safety or performance-wise.

I am pretty convinced that a ratio of 1:10 in comparison to mainstream
imperative languages for tricky symbolic computation as found in theorem
provers, compilers or also in my field (symbolic machine learning
systems) is not absurd. Note that 1:10 was the upper bound for estimated
productivity gains on my projects over C, 1:3 the lower bound. Other
projects may have other bounds.

> AFAIK, OCaml uses threads and locks for concurrent programming,
> and so is no better in this respect than conventional languages (it
> could even be worse, depending on how its GC interacts with threads
> and distributed code).

I really don't think that OCaml has much to fear here. It's support for
threads is excellent.

> As a commercial manager, I've seen a productivity improvement of about 50%
> using Java over C++ -- mainly arising from automatic memory management, and
> a slightly cleaner language.  I would expect OCaml to have that 50%, and
> perhaps another for a more expressive type system, making 2:1.  For some
> problems, e.g. compilers, the increase might be more, say 3:1 or 4:1.  For
> comparison, this is also the productivity improvement I'd expect to see
> using Visual Basic over C/C++ for small GUI/Database problems.

Visual Basic lives from a wealth of tailor-made libraries and development
tools for such applications. This is "application development" rather
than "programming". It's difficult to estimate productivity gains by
language features as long as libraries/tools do most of the job. You'd
have to be specific about what you actually want to measure.

Anyway, I'd be really surprised if my average productivity gain using
OCaml over Java on arbitrary projects were only 2:1. I am pretty sure
it would be higher than this. Doubling the factor seems quite realistic
to me.

Regards,
Markus Mottl

-- 
Markus Mottl                                             markus@oefai.at
Austrian Research Institute
for Artificial Intelligence                  http://www.oefai.at/~markus
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