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Date: -- (:)
From: Ted Kremenek <kremenek@c...>
Subject: Re: [Caml-list] Co-existing with non OCaml threads
Thanks Markus.  I think my main confusion was I forgot the lock was  
managed by the kernel (since it is managed through the pthreads API)  
and that the notify would be on a single blocked thread.  If the  
signaling was a broadcast where all blocked threads were moved to the  
ready queue (versus waking up a single thread) the problem I  
mentioned would still appear.  I.e., if all the blocked threads woke  
up, only one would acquire the lock, but the remaining would get  
scheduled and block.  Fortunately a broadcast isn't needed for this  
problem, since any waiting thread can be rescheduled.  I should have  
realized this on my own, but I appreciate the description of  
"secondary" scheduler implemented by the timer mechanism.

On May 12, 2006, at 1:44 PM, Markus Mottl wrote:

> On 5/12/06, Ted Kremenek <kremenek@cs.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> Because of the run-time lock, should I gather that the threads are
>> still essentially cooperative threads?  For example, does it work
>> this way: if a thread holding the master lock is switched out and the
>> kernel schedules another thread, that other thread will start running
>> and try and acquire the lock.  It won't be able to, so it goes back
>> to sleep, and another thread will wake up, try and acquire the lock,
>> goes back to sleep, and so on, until the original thread holding the
>> lock is rescheduled.
>
> No.  The other threads will block in the master lock, which is a
> POSIX-mutex + condition variable.  Releasing the master lock will
> signal exactly one of the blocking threads that it may run.  The
> context switch, however, does not necessarily happen immediately.  It
> depends on the OS when this will happen, and the scheduling policy
> determines which thread is going to run.
>
>> If so, this would lend itself to extremely poor performance: if I had
>> 100 threads, 99 of them may have to wake up and go to sleep before
>> the original one is scheduled.  That is 99 useless context switches.
>
> That would be horrible, and that's not the way it works.
>
>> Or rather is the lock acquired and released (within the generated
>> native code for the OCaml part of a program, not C code) on calls to
>> the memory management functions and other run-time code that are not
>> thread-safe?  This is also seems slow, since the heap is actively
>> manipulated all the time, so locks will constantly be acquired and
>> released, and you will have the same wake-up, make little or no
>> progress and go back to sleep problem I mentioned before.
>
> A timer signal makes sure that the current thread yields once in a
> while.  Thus, it is not necessary to acquire/release locks at each
> allocation, which would make everything run dog slow.
>
>> Your last email said that only one thread is allowed to run OCaml
>> code at any time, so it seems to me that this mutual exclusion must
>> come from somewhere.  I'm very curious to know how this is
>> implemented.  I gather that most people want to use threads in OCaml
>> to have multiple threads running OCaml code, and not necessarily have
>> a bunch of threads executing called C code (allowing the master lock
>> to be released).  I'm just trying to understand how actual
>> performance would ever resemble anything desirable.
>
> Unless INRIA implements a GC that can handle multiple threads running
> in parallel, which would have its own performance tradeoffs, you'll
> essentially always share one processor only.  It depends on your
> application whether that's a problem.  I/O-heavy applications will do
> fine, because the system calls can all be performed in parallel.  You
> can also always call C or Fortran to run in parallel on bigarrays
> (matrices), because they don't mess with the OCaml-heap.
>
> Regards,
> Markus
>
> -- 
> Markus Mottl        http://www.ocaml.info         
> markus.mottl@gmail.com